Uchi Mata vs. Harai Goshi

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[hobbit]

I have been trying to figure out Uchi Mata. The steps seem very hard for me to do. Any suggestions on how to practice it? I am worried that if I might do it wrong and develop bad habits when practicing in the air against a wall. I am sure that after practicing them a million times and trying it a million times in randori, then I'll figure it out. I just want to practice it right (both with myself and with a partner).

A friend of mine said that, since I am short, I should do Harai Goshi instead. Is there a huge difference between these throws? Does it matter if my Uchi Mata becomes Harai Goshi?

[Mentok]

If you're coming to class tonight, I'll help you with both and we can go over the pros/cons.

[hobbit]

Yes sir. Thanks for lending me a gi tonight too. I forgot my getto gi, and I lent my judo gi to someone who hasn't returned it... grrrrrrr...

[wutang]

If you're doing bjj, I'd stick with the uchi-mata or change to a different throw.  The hip throw exposes your back and in bjj the guy might jump when you turn to hip throw him and take your back standing.  Not a good thing.

[goatfury]

If you're doing bjj, I'd stick with the uchi-mata or change to a different throw.  The hip throw exposes your back and in bjj the guy might jump when you turn to hip throw him and take your back standing.  Not a good thing.

Correct, unless you're very good at stopping the momentum of the throw.  It's a great self-defense technique either way, IMO.

I have been trying to figure out Uchi Mata. The steps seem very hard for me to do. Any suggestions on how to practice it? I am worried that if I might do it wrong and develop bad habits when practicing in the air against a wall. I am sure that after practicing them a million times and trying it a million times in randori, then I'll figure it out. I just want to practice it right (both with myself and with a partner).

A friend of mine said that, since I am short, I should do Harai Goshi instead. Is there a huge difference between these throws? Does it matter if my Uchi Mata becomes Harai Goshi?

No way.   Harai goshi is traditionally thought of as a tall man's throw... or at least that's the way my instructors looked at it.

[merch]

You should have them both....I find harai Goshi really tough to pull of by itself, but you might get good results from using it as a finish in a combination.   To clarify...try an uchi mata, but then switch to harai Goshi.  Uchi mata for some reason is an easier throw for me to pull off straight away.  Both of these throws are good throws and if you do Harai correctly, you will put your opponant on the mat, and harai is a really sh*tty fall imo....uchimata is too.


M

[goatfury]

You should have them both....I find harai Goshi really tough to pull of by itself, but you might get good results from using it as a finish in a combination.   To clarify...try an uchi mata, but then switch to harai Goshi.  Uchi mata for some reason is an easier throw for me to pull off straight away.  Both of these throws are good throws and if you do Harai correctly, you will put your opponant on the mat, and harai is a really sh*tty fall imo....uchimata is too.


M

Agreed.  You might want to try setting up harai off the o-soto attempt, especially from a street connotation.

[hobbit]

Both of these throws are good throws and if you do Harai correctly, you will put your opponant on the mat, and harai is a really sh*tty fall imo....uchimata is too.

I certainly want to be able to do both. No throw is impossible against all opponents, and I need to be able to do it to understand and counter a throw too. I also know how nice recieving an uchi mata is. I broke my toe and cauliflowered my ear two weeks ago when a shodan threw me - several times - with uchi mata (IIRC).

Thanks Goat and everyone else! This is a very informative thread!!!

[Hunter_V]

get Dave Williams Uchimata dvd from islandvideos.com.  On his dvd, he teaches variations on uchimata, including setups, for people your size, smaller, and bigger.  A great investment and the instruction is good as well (he is Dave Camarillo's judo coach as well, fyi).

[Dave Camarillo]

In my opinion Harai Goshi is a better throw than uchi mata in Jiu-Jitsu. The reason is in its application. For me it is easier to pull off in practice/competition. And there is a technical difference in these throws. Uchi-mata is a throw where you come straight in between your opponents legs to generate lift, Harai goshi relies on a slightly more twisting motion. It is in its different application that sets up your opponent's defense/escape. The trouble is when you expose your leg to a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner and they trap it. It somewhat sets your opponent up for a half guard type of counter…and in the ridiculous ruling of grappling and Jiu-Jitsu tournaments there is a theme that when you do not maintain the top position from a throw, no matter how powerful and crowd pleasing it is, you may not get the score. Hence your opponent goes on top in half guard.

Another reason is that when you are doing any kind of twisting movement in a forward throw it limits the ability of your opponent to counter. This is because, if done properly, they are forced in a circular motion. And in that motion it becomes difficult to hold on or trap the attacker in order to defend/escape. This is the main reasoning behind my concept of Judo for Jiu-Jitsu… It utilizes the most effective throws in the context of Jiu-Jitsu ruling. The more rotation in forwards throws the better. Kind of like a swing it makes you a harder target to get a hold of and stop…

Of course there are variables in this on how these techniques are applied. For example: I use a more swinging motion in my Uchi-Mata, Harai Goshi, Tai Otoshi…this way the defense/escape factor is limited…

[Oompa]

I bow to dave on this if I say anything wrong .

But as a short person with nubs for legs  Uchi mata has never been my throw Harai goshi has always been better .
And they way I had to teach myself to do it . Was to Load them up on the hip almost Like I was doing O Goshi , and then do the "Harai" leg sweep part keeping my foot in contact with the ground . Since then It has worked for me .

That said it is not a throw that I use a lot , especially not by itself. 

[LaoTzu42]

Since we're talking about Judo for BJJ and being short...  Please educate me as to best throws.   

I usually end up shooting for a leg becuase my kzushi against taller guys sucks.  I have trouble getting them off balance and making the big hip throws work.  I have had success with Uchimata, but only if I tie up my opponents arms and pull him onto my hips before the throw.  Osoto gari has worked well for me, but more times than not I end up doing Morote Gari.  When that works it's great, but having a guy 30 lbs heavier sprawl takes a lot of energy out of me.

[Oompa]

are you short and thick or just short?

I am short and thick and I will tell you what works for me .  The most stupid simple throw works for me 80%  of the time  I will catch taller guys leaning foward to tie up with me  and catch the hiza Garuma . Sounds to easy but it works

and if all else fails  I will go for sacrifice throws  Ex. not sure the name anymore  I think it's Yoko Wakari  or something like that btu wrestlers useit all the time  kinda looks like a tani otoshi from the front and then Tani otoshi  itself. I use it more as a counter  to a crappy seionage attempt .

[LaoTzu42]

are you short and thick or just short?

short...thick...and old all rolled into one.  Thanks for the advice, I will definetely try those out!!  Want to share some or your guard technique? 

[Dave Camarillo]

Furthermore Harai Goshi sets up your transition much better than Uchi Mata. When you hit the ground you generally don't have a leg trapped by your opponent. With this "Impact Control Position" you can easily set up elbow locks (arm locks) or a quick side control position…

The best throws for Jiu-Jitsu will be explained in my book as to why and why not they are good for Jiu-Jitsu competition. A short list: Harai Goshi, Tai Otoshi, Osoto Gari, And of course my favorite De Ashi barai (Or any grip or no grip footsweep)…

All included in GUERRILLA JIU-JITSU coming in about three months (I am now officially a business man…J

But serious real quick advice, anythrow where you stay away from most of the action and utilize that swinging motion is your best bet to safeguard yourself from your opponent's defence/counter and ultimately sets you in a good "Impact Control Position"…