Harai Makikomi in Grappling Tournament

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[hobbit]

I competed in a grappling tournament yesterday. I scored a sweet Harai Makikomi in no-gi even though I was trying for a Harai Goshi. If it was judo, that would have been ippon. However, it was grappling, I only scored 2 points, and my opponent used my momentum after we hit the floor to off-balance me and prevent me from securing good side control. How do I stop this? How do you finish throws in BJJ so you have better position? Thanks for the advice in the previous thread.

P.S. For some odd reason, I have better success with throws in no-gi rather than with the gi. Even when going against the same opponents. Is that because I am short and I have to get closer to execute throws, which is necessary in no-gi? Am I staying to far out with a gi when I grip the collar/sleeve? I am guessing, I have no idea why this is so.

[Mentok]

Harai makikomi?

I stay away from all wraparound throws in BJJ, as they expose your back to bad things.

JD

QFT.  A great project would be to set up a list of "Just don't do it" throws from judo-->grappling.  We'll also start doing more work along those lines in class.

[hobbit]

I don't know. I had an underhook so I don't see how he could have gotten my back. We we not stationary or going straight forward/backward... we were circling so he would have had to reverse his momentum while swimming his arm inside to take my back. Also like I said, I was attempting harai goshi. My friend said it looked more like harai makikomi so that's what I did I guess. I am rather proud of my thow. It was one of the nicest, highest amplitude of the competition. Too bad I still got second place.

[Hunter_V]

hobbit, there is nothing wrong with that throw for no gi.  Now, as you hit the throw you gotta dive straight into the ground with them.  Its like my judo coach says, "when you throw you arrive with your opponent, not before nor afterwards."  Your weight should be coming straight down into this ribs as you land in the throw, and both of you should hit at the same time.  That drives more of the air out of him, and lets you lock in side control damn quickly.  If you don't land with him (ie ontop of him as you finish the throw), then he has time to recover guard or go for sweeps.  Think of it this way, as you hit the throw dive into the mat with it, that will make you stick to the opponent and he will be in some hurt when you both hit.

[merch]

I love harai makikomi, its a great throw and I have a lot of luck it.  Its a great judo throw, but I do get my back taken alot of the time after execution.  The time it will work for me seems to be if  I can really tie down high on the shoulder.  You can keep good pressure on the arm and maybe secure an arm bar or pivot to side.  If you get a GOOD maki komi, which allows you to stay on your feet, then there are no worries.  Unfortunately, those are tough for me.  This was a good throw for me in judo, i gotta say that it doesn't  do me many favors in jj, but I still like using it.

m

[FrogJJ]

Kumite' classic?  I hope you had fun.  I was going to do it but too much was getting in the way of training the last few weeks. 

Once your throw is over, you need to flop into a good base and maintain it. (it will be hard)  If your dropping into a side control you need to get that knee to the body, then hop over them with head and arm control if they shrimp. 

If they are pulling you to guard, if your late run and pass to the other side.  Maybe go right to North/South position. 

If you land unique throws that people can't even spell, maybe they won't know how to counter it.   

[Stephan Kesting]

I'm not a big fan of Makikomi type throws for BJJ or submission grappling - your back is just too exposed.  I tried a harai makikomi throw in BJJ competition once and ended up turtled underneath a heavier opponent.  I won the match, but that wasn't the way I wanted it to start out.

That being said, if you're a makikomi expert you could probably figure out a way to pull it off successfully at least part of the time.

Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com

[JudoMonk]

I may not be the best  person to answer this, but my brothers 1st choice is Harai Makikomi so...

1) generally using judo throws in bjj is a lot like judo in the begining.  Because alot of the guys don't have as much stand up experience (unless they are wrestlers) getting a possitive grip is pretty easy.  But once you have a good grip things get weird. 

Because throwing a guy and getting your back taken is the hight of judo stupidity (down 2 with a guy on your back?), it is my opinion that you should start by building a possitive grip that gives you an advantage at the end to prevent a guy taking your back.  You already mentioned the best one - a underhook.  A second and only slightly less useful one is a wizzer.  these grips allow for a comitted hip turn, but can be used to keep the guy in front of you.

If you want to use judo techniques in bjj, my recomendation is to practice judo under their rules.  gets some space and time and play "modified golden score".  This mean 3 or 4 guys play to the first score including take downs to the front, but if the bottom guy takes your back you lose.

2) Harai makiikomi specifically.  The throw traditionally does not allow for a underhook/wizzer.  If you can get them then it is really just harai goshi where you landed on them.  If you are going to wrap their arm in the take down, you can use a kimura (like Kris for the Chec rep), or I would suggest looking at the 1987 world championships women's open divisiion.  The open weight player from china would throw then as the other player fought for control, she would simply turn her hips and take a backwards facing side control.

This means: Imagine throwing a guy to the right, he throws his left hook over your hip while you are both on your right sides.  Now to counter his back attack, you release and slide over his right leg and turn to your left and capture his hips with your left arm.  You are now in a half guard passing position.  Gi - you climb up and capture his head or simply step over and fight for the underhook.  No Gi - you are facing his legs backwards in half guard, simply climb down and twist/squeeze foot and legs stuff till he screams.

JM

[FrogJJ]

I looked at the pics.. now I know what it looks like.  hmm lol. 

I just use 3 different hip throw/lock variations in no GI, then I wait for their reaction in a true counter and I then maybe shoot in AFTER The clinch. 

If this throw was being used vs me, I would do what I always do and that is sink my hips, and grab your opposite side hip. 

[princegiggy]

I looked at the pics.. now I know what it looks like.  hmm lol. 

I just use 3 different hip throw/lock variations in no GI, then I wait for their reaction in a true counter and I then maybe shoot in AFTER The clinch. 

If this throw was being used vs me, I would do what I always do and that is sink my hips, and grab your opposite side hip. 

Bigot!!!

[FrogJJ]

I ment to say grab their opposite side hip. 

giggy, your a liar and a thief. 

[hobbit]

I looked at the pics.. now I know what it looks like.  hmm lol. 

I just use 3 different hip throw/lock variations in no GI, then I wait for their reaction in a true counter and I then maybe shoot in AFTER The clinch. 

If this throw was being used vs me, I would do what I always do and that is sink my hips, and grab your opposite side hip.

I have a feeling it was harai goshi after all or at least a hybrid of the two. Oh well, I couldn't see the throw well I was in the middle of doing it.

Those pics don't do the techniques justice. Neither do the practice drills most judoka do. We seem to always drill the throws going straight and on the dominate side (depending on the cannonical way of off-balancing them), but 99% of the throws I get I set up the opposite way from a circular movement. Sort of like setting up a shot from a russian - the action moves in a circle or at an angle.

In this case, I had an over/under with my underhook on my left side (going across his back not up it). We were circling and I steped back a little. This off-balanced him enough that I saw the opening. He couldn't grab me really because we were tied up and he didn't have the balance to lower his level well. He did a good counter on the ground and I couldn't keep balanced in side control (after a little bit, I lost it). If it was judo though, it would have been ippon (and he told me afterward it did affect him a little, but not enough I guess)...

That is, if I recall correctly. I don't remember much of my matchs, and I don't remember much on how I actually got it. I never got a clean harai goshi in practice before - certainly never in the one time we practiced it no-gi - and it was always on the opposite side. It is strange. I never did harai on that side before, but I'm glad it worked! I was trying to set up a hip toss or shot, and I just saw the opening. Then I reacted without thinking. It is almost as though I was possessed or it was a dream. You know what I mean?

JudoMonk's advice was really good. Thank you very much!!! Every time I try throws in judo class, I will attempt a pin or lock so this doesn't happen again. This tournament was very instructive. It exposed a bunch of holes in my game. Hopefully I won't get second place again next year.

[hobbit]

I ment to say grab their opposite side hip. 

giggy, your a liar and a thief. 

He also doesn't know his cows from his bull. Something about that arouses suspicion...

[FrogJJ]

So was it the Kumite classic? 

Sorry I don't have more time to type.  Cya in 5 days! 

[hobbit]

Yep. Where you there FrogJJ? Have fun in those 5 days.

[FrogJJ]

thank you buddy.  I live in Butler County, Slippery Rock to be exact.  If your ever going to be in the area, throw me a pm on here in advance. 

I'm ticked I didn't go.  I'm going to go to that Gracie tourny this fall in Columbus Ohio. 

I'm going to the beach, and I should be sleeping right now as the drive starts in 3 hours. 

[hobbit]

QUESTION: Does the "Impact Control" section in Dave Camarillo's new book Guerrilla Jiu Jitsu cover stuff that may help?

BTW, when does that book come out into bookstores? Soon I hope.