Overhook problems from guard on bigger guys

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[hobbit]

Sometimes when I have guard, I like to get overhooks - trapping his arm under my armpit. There's a lot of stuff to do from here, and more if I move to rubber guard, etc. But sometimes I get pinned there before I can shrimp my hips out, and most of my attacks are harder or impossible. My opponent drives into me before starting his escape and I can't move well.

I guess I could probably sweep them if they disrupt their balance too high, but often they find that sweet spot where I can't move and they can start wiggling out. This happens somewhat frequently with people a lot bigger than me. It also sometimes happens against some guys my size and skill level too. What could I be doing to get into this bad situation, and what could I do to get out?

[TeamBarn]

I mostly use overhooks from butterfly guard, especially with no gi.  You should drill the regular butterfly guard sweep with the over hook, which is what I use when they go to smash me.  I also get a nasty sneaky shoulder lock from there.

When I use an overhook in regular full guard, I often get stuck there, like I'm locked in place by my own position.

[AgentCooper]

Exactly TeamBarn

If you're using overhooks (one or both) and you have full guard.....your opponent can crowd your hips and cause problems with your ability to attack or sweep.  You gotta have butterfly or your feet on his hips if you have any overhooks IMO. 

[FrogJJ]

Hello Jimmy.  This goes for full and butterfly guard.  I myself do not like overhooks without an additional type of control.

If you were to rock a guy with a butterfly guard sweep with double underhooks, you would have all kinds of control and really move his body.  Rock him back over our shoulder, and see that he can post on either side.  With double overhooks, I find that if they sink their base and shoot arms through.. your screwed. 

So you can either start out with an over under, or do what I do.. and that is start with double underhooks, take them to a side, anticipate the post, and pull it in and make that your overhook.  I prefer to sweep somebody to a side and fail, take away what they used to counter the sweep, and then sweep them again to the same side.  They won't be very worried the second time around. 

For full guard no gi, I hate single overhook/opposite side wrist control, double overhooks.  Maybe double underhooks suck in a different way, as your main attack is one side of the body at a time.  Either way, it's all in what you are going for. 

Double overhooks can be crushed, giving them double underhooks that allow them to really lay on top of you.  Double underhooks are great for unique types of submission attack. 

IMO, the best control for attack and anti stack for closed semi open is single underhook and a variation of head control, using strong grips and both arms attacking one side of their body.  Don't think of places your legs can't go.  Use a wierd guard. 

[hobbit]

Exactly TeamBarn

If you're using overhooks (one or both) and you have full guard.....your opponent can crowd your hips and cause problems with your ability to attack or sweep.  You gotta have butterfly or your feet on his hips if you have any overhooks IMO. 

I usually switch to open guard with the overhook. I generally don't like the overhook with butterfly guard - instead I use at least one underhook and I try to be an an angle - but most of my attacks from there are with the feet on hips in guard. So you guys suggest going for the overhook after opening guard/making space instead of beforehand? A sequence would be nice. Thanks for the help both of you!

Hello Jimmy.  This goes for full and butterfly guard.  I myself do not like overhooks without an additional type of control.

If you were to rock a guy with a butterfly guard sweep with double underhooks, you would have all kinds of control and really move his body.  Rock him back over our shoulder, and see that he can post on either side.  With double overhooks, I find that if they sink their base and shoot arms through.. your screwed. 

So you can either start out with an over under, or do what I do.. and that is start with double underhooks, take them to a side, anticipate the post, and pull it in and make that your overhook.  I prefer to sweep somebody to a side and fail, take away what they used to counter the sweep, and then sweep them again to the same side.  They won't be very worried the second time around. 

For full guard no gi, I hate single overhook/opposite side wrist control, double overhooks.  Maybe double underhooks suck in a different way, as your main attack is one side of the body at a time.  Either way, it's all in what you are going for. 

Double overhooks can be crushed, giving them double underhooks that allow them to really lay on top of you.  Double underhooks are great for unique types of submission attack. 

IMO, the best control for attack and anti stack for closed semi open is single underhook and a variation of head control, using strong grips and both arms attacking one side of their body.  Don't think of places your legs can't go.  Use a wierd guard. 

Good tips. I use underhooks a lot, but I was asking about using overhooks here. I think both can be useful depending on the situation.

[goatfury]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUcmdBcgKg&mode=related&search=

Felipe Costa is 120 pounds and therefore has to deal with bigger folks a lot of the time.  This is a nice butterfly guard sweep with an overhook where the guy starts to free his arm.  Not exactly what you're asking about, I know, but really cool.

[BurienTopTeam]

Nice sweep!

[goatfury]

Nice sweep!

I noticed that a lot of the higher level guys (I'm talking world champs here) will sweep one way w/butterfly hooks, then go the other way.  Can't remember who it was I first really noticed it with.  I'll play with it and see if I can't figure a few things out

[hobbit]

Thanks! I'll try that tonight after practice.

[hobbit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUcmdBcgKg&mode=related&search=

Felipe Costa is 120 pounds and therefore has to deal with bigger folks a lot of the time.  This is a nice butterfly guard sweep with an overhook where the guy starts to free his arm.  Not exactly what you're asking about, I know, but really cool.

I tried this tonight against a few kinds of people in gi and nogi and while rolling too. I find it works a lot better from Bobby Palumbi's butterfly guard - where you sort of trap his near leg with your hooks rather than from with both hooks inside (how he shows). I find I have better control. Also, it doesn't work well against one guy who is 50 pounds heavier and is about 6-8" taller than me, but it does seem to work well against guys a little shorter (but still just as heavy) or guys my own weight. I got it a few times from the arm drag as an alternative to taking the back too (and once as a takedown - but we were just playing then ).

Against the taller bigger guy, he would post his legs far where I couldn't control them easily. I ended up being pinned from my own guard and had to switch to half guard to sweep him. Arg! I just want to not be pinned like that. It really stuffs a lot of my options.

[goatfury]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUcmdBcgKg&mode=related&search=

Felipe Costa is 120 pounds and therefore has to deal with bigger folks a lot of the time.  This is a nice butterfly guard sweep with an overhook where the guy starts to free his arm.  Not exactly what you're asking about, I know, but really cool.

I tried this tonight against a few kinds of people in gi and nogi and while rolling too. I find it works a lot better from Bobby Palumbi's butterfly guard (where you sort of trap his near leg with your hooks than from with both hooks inside (how he shows). I find I have better control. Also, it doesn't work well against one guy who is 50 pounds heavier and is about 6-8" taller than me, but it does seem to work well against guys a little shorter (but still just as heavy) or guys my own weight. I got it a few times from the arm drag as an alternative to taking the back too (and once as a takedown - but we were just playing then ).

Against the taller bigger guy, he would post his legs far where I couldn't control them easily. I ended up being pinned from my own guard and had to switch to half guard to sweep him. Arg! I just want to not be pinned like that. It really stuffs a lot of my options.

Switch to X-guard, man!  For the love of god!  (You can also play with the ankle-lock/sweep position a la Marcelo Garcia)

[hobbit]

Talked to Bobby. He thinks Costa's move is too complicated, and that just framing on the neck gives enough space. Can't say I disagree with him after trying it out - I already do that from half and from side control. I'll file Costa's roll into my list of "other" options. I think it has sound principles, but I'm lazy and will try the other options first. Thanks for your help guys too! I really do appreciate it!

[Oompa]

Sometimes when I have guard, I like to get overhooks - trapping his arm under my armpit. There's a lot of stuff to do from here, and more if I move to rubber guard, etc. But sometimes I get pinned there before I can shrimp my hips out, and most of my attacks are harder or impossible. My opponent drives into me before starting his escape and I can't move well.

I guess I could probably sweep them if they disrupt their balance too high, but often they find that sweet spot where I can't move and they can start wiggling out. This happens somewhat frequently with people a lot bigger than me. It also sometimes happens against some guys my size and skill level too. What could I be doing to get into this bad situation, and what could I do to get out?

I have been having  a lot of success lately with under hooking one are and using the other hand to push the head to the other side .. then gable gripping and completely pinning the shoulder ..
make s it easy to get hips out ..  use sweeps becasue you already trapped a post .. go to ruber guard variations etc..

[hobbit]

Sometimes when I have guard, I like to get overhooks - trapping his arm under my armpit. There's a lot of stuff to do from here, and more if I move to rubber guard, etc. But sometimes I get pinned there before I can shrimp my hips out, and most of my attacks are harder or impossible. My opponent drives into me before starting his escape and I can't move well.

I guess I could probably sweep them if they disrupt their balance too high, but often they find that sweet spot where I can't move and they can start wiggling out. This happens somewhat frequently with people a lot bigger than me. It also sometimes happens against some guys my size and skill level too. What could I be doing to get into this bad situation, and what could I do to get out?

I have been having  a lot of success lately with under hooking one are and using the other hand to push the head to the other side .. then gable gripping and completely pinning the shoulder ..
make s it easy to get hips out ..  use sweeps becasue you already trapped a post .. go to ruber guard variations etc..

Is that an overhook like chill dog? Or an under hook just around the shoulder?

[Oompa]

Sometimes when I have guard, I like to get overhooks - trapping his arm under my armpit. There's a lot of stuff to do from here, and more if I move to rubber guard, etc. But sometimes I get pinned there before I can shrimp my hips out, and most of my attacks are harder or impossible. My opponent drives into me before starting his escape and I can't move well.

I guess I could probably sweep them if they disrupt their balance too high, but often they find that sweet spot where I can't move and they can start wiggling out. This happens somewhat frequently with people a lot bigger than me. It also sometimes happens against some guys my size and skill level too. What could I be doing to get into this bad situation, and what could I do to get out?

I have been having  a lot of success lately with under hooking one are and using the other hand to push the head to the other side .. then gable gripping and completely pinning the shoulder ..
make s it easy to get hips out ..  use sweeps becasue you already trapped a post .. go to ruber guard variations etc..

Is that an overhook like chill dog? Or an under hook just around the shoulder?

I don't speak pothead so I don't know what that eddie bravo  thing is ..

but for example.. I underhook  the left shoulder with my right hand . I no gable grip my hand  and pin it to my chest .. my left forearm is no able to  flare under his chin ..
getting his weight up .as long as the wrist is connected to your chest .. you can put a lot of  annoying pressure there .. and once his weight it up .  he is open for sweeping ..