Kenny,
I am saying that there are plenty of people who have no concept about what injuries mean to adults. I am going to take a stab in the dark and say you are mid twenties and mostly do no gi. If you teach, you have more than likely never had any of your students hurt.
You opinion sounds like somebody who thinks that just do bjj for fun is a waste of time, or competing just to measure your technique is not keeping it real. You argument, if I even understand it given my limited reading comprehension, is that heel hooks should be legal because everybody should know how to defend them. Or if you get caught in a heel hood you should tap out.
That is great, but how does that argument fail for any technique. Everybody should be able to defend everything? Where do you draw the line? I don’t think that novices should be defending heel hooks, I have seen too many injuries both in training and competition (including NAGA).
What about neck cranks, slicers, spine locks, finger locks, or slamming? I am curious what you think should be legal? What about gi?
Ron Huxen
PS – Your banned
Now see, this kind of post upsets me. This kind of post reenforces everything bad about messageboards. Your post ends by encouraging a normal discussion and an attempt to understand my point of view but begins with pointless "stabs in the dark." Regardless of whether your assumptions are correct or incorrect, what would it even matter? How is it relevant at all to the topic? Its not. Are you trying to come off as a know it all? Are you trying to point out that my attitude is typical to the type of people you encounter regularly and dont take seriously? The assumptions that you are making are based on absolutely nothing, and being that they are completely wrong, I find them absolutely insulting and irrelevant.
I am 22 years old. I practically live in the gi. I have fun rolling no matter what I am wearing, but infinitely prefer the gi and have since the first day I began training. When I teach, you are correct, I have never had anyone get hurt. I am insanely paranoid about our students getting hurt under my watch because it is not my school and I would feel awful having to tell my instructor that something bad happened when I was covering a class. So I am extremely attentive when I am in charge.
Why would I spend every afternoon/night of my life doing something that wasnt fun? I am a kid. If something isnt fun that I say "f**k this" and go play with sticks or mud something. BJJ is the most fun thing in the world. Some people want to learn self defense, some people are meatheads and need to fill a void that Coach Dad left in their self esteem, some people want to be champion, some people just want something to do. What do I care what someones reasoning behind training is? As long as they are sharing a mat with me and rolling around having a good time, thats all that matters to me. Granted, I do compete at literally every tournament within a 5 or 6 hours distance. Why? Because I love Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I love to travel, I love to roll with guys I have never rolled with before, I love meeting people and I love being around anything related to BJJ. When I do a bunch of things that I love, all at once, I find that often times it results in a great deal of fun. Competing to measure your technique isnt "keeping it real?" What else would a tournament, or skill divisions, or belt levels be for then? Im confused by what you are even trying to say with that one... are you inferring that you think I am retarded?
Yes, I think if you are caught in a heel hook, you should tap out. Is that not common sense? If you get caught in any submission, you should tap out? Is that not correct, or am I missing something really important here? Cause if you arent supposed to tap when you get caught in submissions, then apparently there are a bunch of matches that I just quit for no reason... As far as knowing how to defend them? I get caught in things all the time that I dont know how to defend. Weird collar chokes, or sweeps I havent learned yet, etc etc. As a blue belt, theres no way I can possibly know the defense to everything yet. That is not the point. But I think even a white belt should know when he is stuck in a submission, and when he can fight it off. Its a very basic, fundamental principal of the sport and ESPECIALLY if you are competing you should be aware of this.
Where do I draw the line? Again, not everyone should know the defense to everything. Thats why certain techniques work. But yes, every competitor should be aware of how and when to tap. Armbars dont kill people, hyperextended elbows because the guy waited until his arm popped kills people. Granted I havent been around as long as most but I havent seen any novices at NAGA get hurt from heel hooks. Im sure it has happened when I havent been there to watch it, but novices get hurt by submissions all the time. Arms get broken, ankles get blown, etc etc. Is it because the submission was too dangerous? Or is it from a number of other reasons (refused to tap, freak accident, etc etc) In my experience it is usually one of those other reasons. The only heel hook injuries I have seen personally have been in black belt matches actually, and that was their decision to gamble with their knee in trying to escape. I would say the only legitimate excuse to not tap is to a choke-- I personally havent been choked unconsciouss but Ive come close and in talking with everyone most everyone agrees that at some point they got collar choked and didnt even realize they were going out until they were too late. I was in the process of defending and didnt realize I was going out until I had freed myself and the blood was coming back to my head.
As far as neck cranks, spine locks, and slicers... yeah they are annoying. There is nothing I hate more than someone using a can opener to attempt to open my guard. The first time I got was caught in a twister was at 10th Planet. I didnt know how to apply it, how to defend it, and walked right into the set up for it. Did I just wiggle around and make gross noises and let my spine break? No. I thought "holy s**t, I am in some crazy ass submission that I have never been in before. TAP TAP TAP" I think I made the right choice and would probably apply that same split second decision making to any submission I was caught in.
As far as finger locks and slamming go, why would you bring that up AGAIN? How is that relevant to a heel hook at all? What does a legitimate submission, and the ability to recognize the danger you are in have to do with getting picked up and slammed into the ground or having your fingers turned sideways? Those are not situations where you get stuck and must suck it up and admit defeat. They have nothing to do with the topic at hand and if you cant recognize that, then you are a crazy person. As far as what I think should be legal, I think the rules for the advanced divisions are a good set of rules. Will I stand at the door of the next US Grappling and form a picket line and boycott because I cant slap a toe hold on in blue belt flyweight? Absolutely not. Im not campagining that its messed up that everythings not a legal move or pushing for anyone to change any rules. Someone simply asked "do you think this should be legal?" and I answered "yes" based on my feelings that we as adults should be able to accept responsibility and the consequence that comes with our choices and actions.
Although I feel the same way about gi's rules (in regards to what techniques are allowed at each belt level) as I do about no gi, I have no problem not being able to heel hook in the gi. But thats only for the simple reason that its a completely different event and I like that there is a different point system and some minor changes in the rules. I think it is cool that they arent exactly the same, only with an outfit change and its challenging that I have a much different gameplan between the two different events.
I cant believe I felt the need to type this long of a response, but maybe if I make things THIS clear you wont have to assume Im a competition hungry mid 20 year old, foaming at the mouth and snarling at the idea of someone doing BJJ just for fun. And maybe youll stop asking me if slamming should be legal.
