NAGA allows Heelhooks, Toeholds, Neck cranks, etc.. In Beginners-Opinions.

[h2otiburon]

What do you think of this change?

[Ichimonji !!]

I think I train BJJ as a HOBBY and do not consider myself a professional fighter.  Tomorrow I need to go to work.  I do not trust Joe white belt to understand the intricacies of a heel hook and understand how far he can crank before my ACL gives up.

[JIU JITSU JOE]

Believe it or not, I actually like this decision because it is the only tournament where you do not have to be in advanced divisions to do those moves. I do hate the canopener though haha. But i like that they will allow heel hooks and twisting footlocks.

[goatfury]

Incredibly reckless. 

[SanDaWang]

Incredibly reckless. 

sells

[h2otiburon]

Personally, I was there and had one of my guys get caught on a heel hook, luckily he had a bruised knee (nothing serious) , but made him more safe about it and tapped. I also witness two beginner locking a 50/50 position and going after heel hooks madly, I thought that one of them was done for sure, luckily time ran out.

I was not aware of heel hooks at beginners division so I had not taught them much on the subject ( all that is changing now). I like open tournaments with all submissions, for advanced practitioners, but beginners (6 month-1 year) have little idea about the limitations of their body, and only go by pain as the indicator.

The reasoning behind allowing these submissions is that all competitors are adults. In my book and adult beginners, and white belts need to be treated as kids until they mature in the sport with a lot of safety, because they can be reckless. At the school every now and then you get a new student who without any understanding will do very dangerous stuff and can only be paired with a more advance student that can wrestle with him safely otherwise the injury rate shoots through the roof.

[Randy Bloom]

Incredibly reckless.

I totality agree.

[kying418]

It is a really dumb decision in my opinion.

Their reasoning is that you can get hurt with any other move, so why not allow heelhooks?

[kosta]

to their point: don't compete then.

i think it's a bad idea.  should guys doing jits and or any type of grappling be even near heelhooks in beginners?  they should be perfecting takedowns, passing guard, mounting, controling position and then your armlocks and chokes...

[Ichimonji !!]

do they offer affordable health care ??


I have been told that those waivers you signed before you compete are very worthless.  I hope Naga has good lawyers on retainer.

[turkey sandwich]

horrible.  There are too many other things a beginner need be developing to have to consider most leg locks.  This is only going to result in people getting hurt.  There is no good reason for this rule change.

[FWpodcast]

I think I train BJJ as a HOBBY and do not consider myself a professional fighter.  Tomorrow I need to go to work.  I do not trust Joe white belt to understand the intricacies of a heel hook and understand how far he can crank before my ACL gives up.

Agreed.

[parka85]

this is definitely a bad idea.  i remember when I bruised my knee from a heel hook last year. not fun.

[livershot]

I personally have never competed @ naga but after seeing this I will not take my students to compete in anything like that.

[jasculs]

They let you do heel hooks in all divisions...Even novice.  Pretty ridiculous in my opinion

[Kenny from MD]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

[goatfury]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

[kebam]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

then why have divisions?

 How long does it take to tap from pain from a bicep splicer if your forearm is already broke, from a heel hook if it's thrown on when you have not been grappling long enough to know what they even are, let alone recognize them on the fly in competition?

[Cankles]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

then why have divisions?

 How long does it take to tap from pain from a bicep splicer if your forearm is already broke, from a heel hook if it's thrown on when you have not been grappling long enough to know what they even are, let alone recognize them on the fly in competition?

+1

[goatfury]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

then why have divisions?

 How long does it take to tap from pain from a bicep splicer if your forearm is already broke, from a heel hook if it's thrown on when you have not been grappling long enough to know what they even are, let alone recognize them on the fly in competition?

I think you meant to quote Kenny.

[JudoMonk]

Completely BS.

To the guys who say - you are an adult - tap out.  Then what about slamming, fishhooking, small joint manipulation, eye gouge, etc...  These techniques are not striking.  You can just tap if it hurts.  If you believe that you are not welcome around me or my students.  If these rules are actually what NAGA is using then my school will skip.

JM

[Truman Birch]

Completely BS.

To the guys who say - you are an adult - tap out.  Then what about slamming, fishhooking, small joint manipulation, eye gouge, etc...  These techniques are not striking.  You can just tap if it hurts.  If you believe that you are not welcome around me or my students.  If these rules are actually what NAGA is using then my school will skip.

JM

Right on.

As an instructor, I feel a certain responsibility to look out for my students.  I would have concerns putting new students into that situation.  Especially the guys who need their ACLs for work or the guys without health insurance.

Kosta is right too.  Newbies should be working on fundamentals.

[goatfury]

If these rules are actually what NAGA is using then my school will skip.

JM

From www.nagafighter.com:

Ø            All Submission Techniques are legal (including heel hooks, knee locks, guillotine chokes etc.) except:

 NAGA ILLEGAL TECHNIQUES

SPECIAL RULES FOR KIDS & TEENS:

Ø        NO HEEL HOOKS allowed in the KIDS & TEEN divisions.

Ø        NO SLAMMING from the Guard allowed in any of the KIDS & TEEN divisions.

Ø        NO NECK CRANKS ALLOWED

[Cankles]

Said it before, and I'll say it again...NAGA sucks...

[kebam]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

then why have divisions?

 How long does it take to tap from pain from a bicep splicer if your forearm is already broke, from a heel hook if it's thrown on when you have not been grappling long enough to know what they even are, let alone recognize them on the fly in competition?

I think you meant to quote Kenny.

oops

[goatfury]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

then why have divisions?

 How long does it take to tap from pain from a bicep splicer if your forearm is already broke, from a heel hook if it's thrown on when you have not been grappling long enough to know what they even are, let alone recognize them on the fly in competition?

I think you meant to quote Kenny.

oops

No, it's cool... I think maybe we've discovered some new kind of sparkle.

[scsubfighter]

This is craziness. It's an open invitation to injury. My students won't be at any NAGA event.

[kebam]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

then why have divisions?

 How long does it take to tap from pain from a bicep splicer if your forearm is already broke, from a heel hook if it's thrown on when you have not been grappling long enough to know what they even are, let alone recognize them on the fly in competition?

I think you meant to quote Kenny.

oops

No, it's cool... I think maybe we've discovered some new kind of sparkle.

hmmm, a "kebam" doesn't have much zing.  Do I need to change my nick to something cool?

[goatfury]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

then why have divisions?

 How long does it take to tap from pain from a bicep splicer if your forearm is already broke, from a heel hook if it's thrown on when you have not been grappling long enough to know what they even are, let alone recognize them on the fly in competition?

I think you meant to quote Kenny.

oops

No, it's cool... I think maybe we've discovered some new kind of sparkle.

hmmm, a "kebam" doesn't have much zing.  Do I need to change my nick to something cool?

I think it's just as good as "sparkle" for all intensive purposes (in tents and purr-pussies).

[maxxb0y]

I personally will not do any NAGA tourneys.  I have trained the heel hook while in no gi but that was training and in controlled enviornment.  Have fun with that NAGA.

[kebam]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

then why have divisions?

 How long does it take to tap from pain from a bicep splicer if your forearm is already broke, from a heel hook if it's thrown on when you have not been grappling long enough to know what they even are, let alone recognize them on the fly in competition?

I think you meant to quote Kenny.

oops

No, it's cool... I think maybe we've discovered some new kind of sparkle.

hmmm, a "kebam" doesn't have much zing.  Do I need to change my nick to something cool?

I think it's just as good as "sparkle" for all intensive purposes (in tents and purr-pussies).

when are ya'll coming to Texas so we have other choices besides naga?

[Joe Hurst]

My thoughts Advanced only for twisting locks..

The most prestegious Jiu Jitsu event in the World Jan. 17th 
The Bud Cup

for more info email me directly.. jiujitsujoe@hotmail.com 

[Brad]

Terrible idea.

Terrible tournament.

[oldsnwbrdr]

These are the same rules NAGA has always used in the no-gi, this is nothing new.  In gi, though, submission rules are the same as CBJJ.  No attacks below the waist for kids and white belts.  Blue belts can do straight footlocks.  No one can do heelhooks/twisting kneelocks.

Truth is, in tournaments a competitor is far likelier to be injured during a takedown or a scramble than any submission hold, though everyone on this thread is correct that some leglocks are much more dangerous than others.  As an instructor, I think it would be wise to do at least some training on leglocks... teaching students which are more dangerous than others... and the importance of knowing when to tap.  This should be true even in BJJ schools where leglocks are not part of the regular curriculum, especially to beginners.

[StallionRGA]

I think I train BJJ as a HOBBY and do not consider myself a professional fighter.  Tomorrow I need to go to work.  I do not trust Joe white belt to understand the intricacies of a heel hook and understand how far he can crank before my ACL gives up.

Couldn't agree with you more Ichimonji!
I'm ok for straight foot locks and straight Kneebars in beginners divisions, but Heel hooks, Toeholds, and neck Cranks should belong only in the advance division.

[JiuJitsuNow]

Incredibly reckless.

I totality agree.

Nobody from NAGA will knock to your door asking you to compete sir, no worries, LOL.... You will be really surprise how many people cares more about samurai sword them their own knees, legs, heels. The event was really pack both days and nobody got hurt serious, not that I see, thanks God.

Hope you doing good man.


Andrew
(No Stalling)

[Fingerlock]

We teach all of our students leg locks, even the beginners.  However, they are allowed to do them while sparring until they know how to roll safely.

This rule is bad and will have beginners at many schools trying to practice them while sparring in order to prepare for a tournament.  This will surely add more money to our doctors pockets.

[Kenny from MD]

Completely BS.

To the guys who say - you are an adult - tap out.  Then what about slamming, fishhooking, small joint manipulation, eye gouge, etc...  These techniques are not striking.  You can just tap if it hurts.  If you believe that you are not welcome around me or my students.  If these rules are actually what NAGA is using then my school will skip.

JM

Even when I was very new I was tapping out to bicep slicers and toeholds. We train with all the submissions at my school, and my instructor stresses safety issues to everyone, especially if hes seems them messing around with heelhooks and stuff. You may not be in exruciating pain from a heel hook until it pops, but you dont feel everything in your leg going completley tight, like its about to snap? Maybe I am asking for too much, thinking that as a competitor you would have enough common sense and knowledge about what youre doing to not hurt somenoe else, or hurt yourself. If you disagree with me that everything should be legal, especially from an instructor or event promoter's standpoint, i can totally understand why, I simply have a difference of opinion.

As far as JM is concerned, I cannot believe you would seriously try to turn me thinking "toe holds should be legal. you should be taught and undersstand that when your foot gets twisted backwards, it will eventually snap. by understanding you are caught and submitting, you are making a rational decision as an adult will avoid this injury" into YEAH MAN, FIGHT THROUGH THE PAIN WE SHOULD BE POKING EACH OTHER IN THE EYES AND THROWING EACH OTHER THROUGH WINDOWS BRO!! I did not say tap out because it hurts, I said tap out because someone is winding everything in your knee in a clockwise direction and everything is about to pop. Just like if someone is bending your arm the wrong way, things in your elbow are going to pop. If this is the kind of logic and reading comprehension you teach to your students, then nevermind banning me from your school, keep your students away from me.

[kebam]

kenny, why have divisions then?  why not just weight classes then.  Congrats on the great school you go to that teaches every sub the first day.  I had my first comp when I had been training less than a month.  Beginner sounds like a pretty good place at that point.

reasonable people can disagree however.

[ScottS]

You really think the only point of divisions is to separate submission use?

[Kenny from MD]

kenny, why have divisions then?  why not just weight classes then.  Congrats on the great school you go to that teaches every sub the first day.  I had my first comp when I had been training less than a month.  Beginner sounds like a pretty good place at that point.

reasonable people can disagree however.

I dont know if you were being sarcastic when congratulating me on my great school, but if it sounded like i was bragging that were taught those submissions i wasnt. im just saying we are properly trained so we know how to properly apply them, how to react to them being applied and the dangers and precautions that come with them. but yeah, my school is pretty great. judging by some of the replies maybe i am coming off like a dick when i dont mean to be? i mean the guys that know me in real life know im a total darling... so im sorry if im coming off rude. well except to judo monk whos banned me from life.

to answer your question, i dont think the point of divisions is solely to dictate what submissions you can and cant perform and im a little suprised honestly that thats even an issue? you are saying, well if anyone can do heel hooks why even differntiate skill levels... that doesnt make any sense to me.. (again not trying to be a dick, im just confused because skill or experience level has very little to do with which techniques youve learned in class)

[JudoMonk]

Kenny,

I am saying that there are plenty of people who have no concept about what injuries mean to adults.  I am going to take a stab in the dark and say you are mid twenties and mostly do no gi.  If you teach, you have more than likely never had any of your students hurt.

You opinion sounds like somebody who thinks that just do bjj for fun is a waste of time, or competing just to measure your technique is not keeping it real.  You argument, if I even understand it given my limited reading comprehension, is that heel hooks should be legal because everybody should know how to defend them.  Or if you get caught in a heel hood you should tap out. 

That is great, but how does that argument fail for any technique.  Everybody should be able to defend everything?  Where do you draw the line?  I don’t think that novices should be defending heel hooks, I have seen too many injuries both in training and competition (including NAGA).

What about neck cranks, slicers, spine locks, finger locks, or slamming?  I am curious what you think should be legal?  What about gi?

Ron Huxen

PS – Your banned

[Kenny from MD]

Kenny,

I am saying that there are plenty of people who have no concept about what injuries mean to adults.  I am going to take a stab in the dark and say you are mid twenties and mostly do no gi.  If you teach, you have more than likely never had any of your students hurt.

You opinion sounds like somebody who thinks that just do bjj for fun is a waste of time, or competing just to measure your technique is not keeping it real.  You argument, if I even understand it given my limited reading comprehension, is that heel hooks should be legal because everybody should know how to defend them.  Or if you get caught in a heel hood you should tap out. 

That is great, but how does that argument fail for any technique.  Everybody should be able to defend everything?  Where do you draw the line?  I don’t think that novices should be defending heel hooks, I have seen too many injuries both in training and competition (including NAGA).

What about neck cranks, slicers, spine locks, finger locks, or slamming?  I am curious what you think should be legal?  What about gi?

Ron Huxen

PS – Your banned

Now see, this kind of post upsets me. This kind of post reenforces everything bad about messageboards. Your post ends by encouraging a normal discussion and an attempt to understand my point of view but begins with pointless "stabs in the dark." Regardless of whether your assumptions are correct or incorrect, what would it even matter? How is it relevant at all to the topic? Its not. Are you trying to come off as a know it all? Are you trying to point out that my attitude is typical to the type of people you encounter regularly and dont take seriously? The assumptions that you are making are based on absolutely nothing, and being that they are completely wrong, I find them absolutely insulting and irrelevant.

I am 22 years old. I practically live in the gi. I have fun rolling no matter what I am wearing, but infinitely prefer the gi and have since the first day I began training. When I teach, you are correct, I have never had anyone get hurt. I am insanely paranoid about our students getting hurt under my watch because it is not my school and I would feel awful having to tell my instructor that something bad happened when I was covering a class. So I am extremely attentive when I am in charge.

Why would I spend every afternoon/night of my life doing something that wasnt fun? I am a kid. If something isnt fun that I say "f**k this" and go play with sticks or mud something. BJJ is the most fun thing in the world. Some people want to learn self defense, some people are meatheads and need to fill a void that Coach Dad left in their self esteem, some people want to be champion, some people just want something to do. What do I care what someones reasoning behind training is? As long as they are sharing a mat with me and rolling around having a good time, thats all that matters to me. Granted, I do compete at literally every tournament within a 5 or 6 hours distance. Why? Because I love Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I love to travel, I love to roll with guys I have never rolled with before, I love meeting people and I love being around anything related to BJJ. When I do a bunch of things that I love, all at once, I find that often times it results in a great deal of fun. Competing to measure your technique isnt "keeping it real?" What else would a tournament, or skill divisions, or belt levels be for then? Im confused by what you are even trying to say with that one... are you inferring that you think I am retarded?

Yes, I think if you are caught in a heel hook, you should tap out. Is that not common sense? If you get caught in any submission, you should tap out? Is that not correct, or am I missing something really important here? Cause if you arent supposed to tap when you get caught in submissions, then apparently there are a bunch of matches that I just quit for no reason... As far as knowing how to defend them? I get caught in things all the time that I dont know how to defend. Weird collar chokes, or sweeps I havent learned yet, etc etc. As a blue belt, theres no way I can possibly know the defense to everything yet. That is not the point. But I think even a white belt should know when he is stuck in a submission, and when he can fight it off. Its a very basic, fundamental principal of the sport and ESPECIALLY if you are competing you should be aware of this.

Where do I draw the line? Again, not everyone should know the defense to everything. Thats why certain techniques work. But yes, every competitor should be aware of how and when to tap. Armbars dont kill people, hyperextended elbows because the guy waited until his arm popped kills people. Granted I havent been around as long as most but I havent seen any novices at NAGA get hurt from heel hooks. Im sure it has happened when I havent been there to watch it, but novices get hurt by submissions all the time. Arms get broken, ankles get blown, etc etc. Is it because the submission was too dangerous? Or is it from a number of other reasons (refused to tap, freak accident, etc etc) In my experience it is usually one of those other reasons. The only heel hook injuries I have seen personally have been in black belt matches actually, and that was their decision to gamble with their knee in trying to escape. I would say the only legitimate excuse to not tap is to a choke-- I personally havent been choked unconsciouss but Ive come close and in talking with everyone most everyone agrees that at some point they got collar choked and didnt even realize they were going out until they were too late. I was in the process of defending and didnt realize I was going out until I had freed myself and the blood was coming back to my head.

As far as neck cranks, spine locks, and slicers... yeah they are annoying. There is nothing I hate more than someone using a can opener to attempt to open my guard. The first time I got was caught in a twister was at 10th Planet. I didnt know how to apply it, how to defend it, and walked right into the set up for it. Did I just wiggle around and make gross noises and let my spine break? No. I thought "holy s**t, I am in some crazy ass submission that I have never been in before. TAP TAP TAP" I think I made the right choice and would probably apply that same split second decision making to any submission I was caught in.

As far as finger locks and slamming go, why would you bring that up AGAIN? How is that relevant to a heel hook at all? What does a legitimate submission, and the ability to recognize the danger you are in have to do with getting picked up and slammed into the ground or having your fingers turned sideways? Those are not situations where you get stuck and must suck it up and admit defeat. They have nothing to do with the topic at hand and if you cant recognize that, then you are a crazy person. As far as what I think should be legal, I think the rules for the advanced divisions are a good set of rules. Will I stand at the door of the next US Grappling and form a picket line and boycott because I cant slap a toe hold on in blue belt flyweight? Absolutely not. Im not campagining that its messed up that everythings not a legal move or pushing for anyone to change any rules. Someone simply asked "do you think this should be legal?" and I answered "yes" based on my feelings that we as adults should be able to accept responsibility and the consequence that comes with our choices and actions.

Although I feel the same way about gi's rules (in regards to what techniques are allowed at each belt level) as I do about no gi, I have no problem not being able to heel hook in the gi. But thats only for the simple reason that its a completely different event and I like that there is a different point system and some minor changes in the rules. I think it is cool that they arent exactly the same, only with an outfit change and its challenging that I have a much different gameplan between the two different events.

I cant believe I felt the need to type this long of a response, but maybe if I make things THIS clear you wont have to assume Im a competition hungry mid 20 year old, foaming at the mouth and snarling at the idea of someone doing BJJ just for fun. And maybe youll stop asking me if slamming should be legal.

[kebam]

kenny, why have divisions then?  why not just weight classes then.  Congrats on the great school you go to that teaches every sub the first day.  I had my first comp when I had been training less than a month.  Beginner sounds like a pretty good place at that point.

reasonable people can disagree however.

I dont know if you were being sarcastic when congratulating me on my great school, but if it sounded like i was bragging that were taught those submissions i wasnt. im just saying we are properly trained so we know how to properly apply them, how to react to them being applied and the dangers and precautions that come with them. but yeah, my school is pretty great. judging by some of the replies maybe i am coming off like a dick when i dont mean to be? i mean the guys that know me in real life know im a total darling... so im sorry if im coming off rude. well except to judo monk whos banned me from life.

to answer your question, i dont think the point of divisions is solely to dictate what submissions you can and cant perform and im a little suprised honestly that thats even an issue? you are saying, well if anyone can do heel hooks why even differntiate skill levels... that doesnt make any sense to me.. (again not trying to be a dick, im just confused because skill or experience level has very little to do with which techniques youve learned in class)

you aren't coming off like a dick at all but you do seem to be minimizing the concerns of the other posters.  I just think that there needs to be a layer of safety for people that maybe don't have the access to the same level of training you had. 

" im just confused because skill or experience level has very little to do with which techniques youve learned in class)"

I think it has everything to do with what you've learned in class.  It takes time to know when to tap.  My first bicep splicer didn't hurt at all, but if I hadn't already been practicing for several months I wouldn't have known I was in any danger and wouldn't have tapped because when I first started, everything was new.  I didn't think I was in any danger but I got an uneasy feeling and tapped because of that.

As stated, I competed in my first tournament with less than a month in.   Where is the layer of safety there?  People shouldn't compete until they go down a sub recognition check list?

[oldsnwbrdr]

The bias against leglocks is cultural within the BJJ community.  Leglocks are as legit as any other submission.  Train them!!!  Learn them!!!  Learn when to tap!!!

Again, if safety was the overriding concern, then takedowns would be banned.  I don't care how many people claim they've seen people hurt by leglocks, it pales in comparison to the number of broken legs, toes, knee dislocations, arm dislocations, caused by good old fashioned double-legs and judo throws.

You want to eliminate the danger element altogether?  Fine, go to the paddycake tournament down the street.

Otherwise, train submissions!!

[SanDaWang]

hate to say it, but there's a lot of truth to all those statements;

the most dangerous thing in martial arts; dumbasses and ego

knee bar different from arm-bar, kimura different from heel-hook?

And judo is ugly. Freestyle is ugly. Kids get hurt a lot less b/c they are rubbery. Adult newbs RARELY stick with Judo after their first injury, which INEVITABLY comes.

I have had most of my toes dislocated or the ligaments sprained more than once. The same with my fingers. Major contusions that took weeks to subside on all parts of my body, popped elbow more than once. In less than four years of training. This is just usual training s**t, this isn't acute injuries or accidents.

[CreamyTitties]

There is no way heel hooks should be allowed in beginners. Kenny you have to remember these guys barely know how to armbar from guard, and most don't even understand the mechanics of a shoulder lock.

[GQ NEWS]

GRAPPLERS QUEST IS 100% ON FOR NOVEMBER 8TH IN KISSIMMEE, FLORIDA!

CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS EMAIL WE GOT TODAY?

"We were at the NAGA tournament this weekend in BOCA raton and it was annouced by Kipp Kollar (President of NAGA) during his opening speech that your upcoming tournament in Kissimmee had been canceled. We didn't think that was true. However, it was said to everyone attending NAGA.

If it has been canceled please email me back to let me know.
If not we will be there! Just thought you should know."

==================================================

Grapplers Quest on Saturday, November 8th is 100% on.  We already have 497 pre-registered competitors and more rolling through every day.  Pre-Registration ends this coming Sunday, November 2nd @ 11:59 PM.

Pre-Register online at:
http://www.grapplers.com/store/midscreen.cfm

Purchase Spectator Tickets here:
http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/2200413984AB2111?artistid=1260628&majorcatid=10004&minorcatid=27

Please help us spread the word...

[JJB]

A friend of mine from college had been 'training' a month or two (under some blue belt who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the wall) and decided to go to NAGA last summer in NJ. I went down to watch him even though I swore years ago to never go to one again. He enter the novice division and during his 1st match someone threw on a heel hook and gator rolled a blew his knee out. I was super pissed and said something to the ref, who informed me that it is perfectly legal in all divisions under their rules. Kipp was standing there like the smug c**t that he is and said to my friend, 'maybe next year' with a fucking smirk and then walked away. It was all I could do to not fucking wreck that piece of s**t. I asked my friend why he didn't tap as soon as the kid locked the heel hook on (even though I'm not sure he even had time) and he told me he had never seen or heard of one before so he didn't realize he was in any danger. Complete bullshit, imo. That has no place in novice/beginner/kids divisions.

[Joemoplata]

I remember watchin a match with Goatfury in which he slapped on the perfect heel hook and his opponent in refusing to tap popped his knee.  Goat stopped and let go saying that his knee had popped and the guy kept arguing that he was fine.  Goat pretty much refused to continue torquing the guy's knee and kept protesting to the ref that the guy's knee was popped.

This is what I would want and expect from someone going for that type of a submission on me at a tournament, and I cannot expect to get that level of knowledge and respect from someone in the beginner's divisions.

[JudoMonk]

Kenny,

Mostly I am just messing with you because you are WAY to sure you are right.  I was attempting to get you to realize that most of the guys arguing against novices using heel hooks have more experience than you.  I saw you posted on the Balance promotion thread – ask Ricky and Phil about Rob Monty, or for that matter just as for a generic white belt heel hook horror story.  You will get plenty.

Most of the problem I have with the "everything goes" crowd is that they want to reinvent the wheel.  Decades of BJJ teaching, training, and competitions have kind of evolved into the rules we have today.  I brought up slamming as an example of a technique that you might not approve of – that is how I feel about novice heel hooks.  Try to understand that.  Keep in mind that I have played in divisions with heel hooks and slamming allowed.  This discussion is about novice divisions.

You seem passionate about your training and opinion.  To be fair, you are more passionate than I am about mine.  I could care less about what other people do or think, I don’t teach my novices heel hooks because I don’t think novices are coordinated enough to control them, and I don’t think that they are sensitive enough to know when they are going to get injured.  Most of my students are professionals who have to go to work on Monday; they need to be able to walk.

I am sorry if I fired you up too much, my intent was to just poke you a little, not make you crazy.  Heel hooks are not allowed in my beginner classes, my students will not compete in divisions with heel hooks until they are intermediates.  I don’t allow heel hooks in my gi classes.  Basically they are too dangerous.

JM

PS – If Ricky of Phil say you are not a knucklehead, you are always welcome to train with me in Hawaii.  Aloha kid – rehab that knee.

[ScottS]

As stated, I competed in my first tournament with less than a month in.   Where is the layer of safety there? 

That's a good question.  Why did you put yourself in a situation to be injured when you weren't ready?
Is it the sport's fault you were competing while ignorant of all that is encompassed in the sport?
Do you feel it is the responsibility of the tournament promoters to protect its competitors from themselves or do you think competitors should be required to exhibit personal responsibility of their own choices?

[kebam]

As stated, I competed in my first tournament with less than a month in.   Where is the layer of safety there? 

That's a good question.  Why did you put yourself in a situation to be injured when you weren't ready?
Is it the sport's fault you were competing while ignorant of all that is encompassed in the sport?
Do you feel it is the responsibility of the tournament promoters to protect its competitors from themselves or do you think competitors should be required to exhibit personal responsibility of their own choices?

Why have refs?  Is that not a layer of safety for the competitors?

again, then, why have divisions?  Either you tap because someone already knows subs you haven't adequately trained for, or they out point you because they know techniques you don't.

That first tourny I knew enough to know what an americana and armbar where, but not much else.  That was also to Kenny's point about already knowing everything.  If someone grabbed at my ankles I would have thought it was some kind of sweep attempt or something.  If it would have been anything goes I wouldn't have entered.

In gi, the white belt is there for the white belt's protection as well as the person the white belt is rolling with.  should be the same for beginner level.  If they want anything goes enter a higher level.

[JordanEvolve]

Not a big deal IMO. If NAGAs were a bloodbath, that'd be one thing, but I haven't noticed any insane injury rate.

[kebam]

Not a big deal IMO. If NAGAs were a bloodbath, that'd be one thing, but I haven't noticed any insane injury rate.

I don't even compete that much,  I just like to argue.

[Kenny from MD]

Kenny,

Mostly I am just messing with you because you are WAY to sure you are right.  I was attempting to get you to realize that most of the guys arguing against novices using heel hooks have more experience than you.  I saw you posted on the Balance promotion thread – ask Ricky and Phil about Rob Monty, or for that matter just as for a generic white belt heel hook horror story.  You will get plenty.

Most of the problem I have with the "everything goes" crowd is that they want to reinvent the wheel.  Decades of BJJ teaching, training, and competitions have kind of evolved into the rules we have today.  I brought up slamming as an example of a technique that you might not approve of – that is how I feel about novice heel hooks.  Try to understand that.  Keep in mind that I have played in divisions with heel hooks and slamming allowed.  This discussion is about novice divisions.

You seem passionate about your training and opinion.  To be fair, you are more passionate than I am about mine.  I could care less about what other people do or think, I don’t teach my novices heel hooks because I don’t think novices are coordinated enough to control them, and I don’t think that they are sensitive enough to know when they are going to get injured.  Most of my students are professionals who have to go to work on Monday; they need to be able to walk.

I am sorry if I fired you up too much, my intent was to just poke you a little, not make you crazy.  Heel hooks are not allowed in my beginner classes, my students will not compete in divisions with heel hooks until they are intermediates.  I don’t allow heel hooks in my gi classes.  Basically they are too dangerous.

JM

PS – If Ricky of Phil say you are not a knucklehead, you are always welcome to train with me in Hawaii.  Aloha kid – rehab that knee.

I liked this response a lot better. The thing is, Im merely stating my personal opinion on the matter and in no way do I feel that it should be pushed upon anyone else. I DO realize that although I am smart and will tap long before my knee explodes, some people are.. well.... stupid. I have enough fun at BJJ tournaments as they are and pretty much went up a division to have the freedom to leglock how I please. I dont think this is such a pressing issue that any rules NEED to be changed, Im just stating preference is all. And I hope in getting fired up and stating my opinion I didnt come off as a know it all, or disrespectful or like I have more experience under my belt than I do. Ricky and Phil will tell you Im a sweetheart, and a cutie pie and I would love to roll with you in hawaii.

PS It is kind of funny that were arguing over safety issues of heel hooks while I am sitting here with my knee wrapped in 3 inches of gauze and hobbling around on crutches

[clinzy]

PS It is kind of funny that were arguing over safety issues of heel hooks while I am sitting here with my knee wrapped in 3 inches of gauze and hobbling around on crutches

The hilarity of this was not wasted on me.

[kebam]

Kenny, the only thing even remotely wrong with your point of view is confusing stupidity with lack of knowledge, imo.

Hope the leg heals up well.

[goatfury]

Kenny, the only thing even remotely wrong with your point of view is confusing stupidity with lack of knowledge, imo.

That, and he's vegan.

[Liberty Events]

I know that we have had feedback that our rules are too restrictive. We do not allow heelhooks or neckcranks even in advanced. Other than that I think we have normal rules.

btw CBJJ DOES allow straight ankle in white belts.

[Cankles]

It's not necesarily the fact that some people are stupid and not want to tap.  It's the fact that some newbies lack the sensitivity to give you a chance to tap.  A lot of newbies spaz in practice.  Some are cool in class, but will spaz when you put them in a tournament setting.  Do you want a newbie spazzing out on a heelhook and not even give your buddy, who you just got into this sport 4 months ago, a second to tap?

Some of these guys doing no-gi are guys are TUF newbs that are all attitude, and have no respect for their competitors, as the "older" generations have had.  They all want to learn the cool subs, and eddie bravo's letest cool stuff.  They don't want to learn the foundations of the game.  They want all the cool stuff that will get them the taps, and they want it now.  What happens when you miss the new, "flashy" sub, and they get stuck on the bottom in side control?    "Oh, I didn't learn that, yet..."

[Cankles]

btw CBJJ DOES allow straight ankle in white belts.

Really?  When did that start?

[SilverFox]

btw CBJJ DOES allow straight ankle in white belts.

Absolutely incorrect.    http://www.ibjjf.org/rules.htm

There are no leg locks until Brown & Black belt divisions, even for no-gi competition ( no straight ankle/knee, no toe hold, no calf slicers ).  In fact, there are no heel hooks allowed in any division, gi or no-gi. 

[goatfury]

btw CBJJ DOES allow straight ankle in white belts.

Absolutely incorrect.    http://www.ibjjf.org/rules.htm

There are no leg locks until Brown & Black belt divisions, even for no-gi competition ( no straight ankle/knee, no toe hold, no calf slicers ).  In fact, there are no heel hooks allowed in any division, gi or no-gi. 

Blue and purple belts are allowed to do straight footlocks (ankle locks).

[goatfury]

btw CBJJ DOES allow straight ankle in white belts.

Absolutely incorrect.    http://www.ibjjf.org/rules.htm

There are no leg locks until Brown & Black belt divisions, even for no-gi competition ( no straight ankle/knee, no toe hold, no calf slicers ).  In fact, there are no heel hooks allowed in any division, gi or no-gi. 

Blue and purple belts are allowed to do straight footlocks (ankle locks).

"Leg lock" means "kneebar" in IBJJFese.

[chris burke]

twisting boner locks.

[SilverFox]

btw CBJJ DOES allow straight ankle in white belts.

Absolutely incorrect.    http://www.ibjjf.org/rules.htm

There are no leg locks until Brown & Black belt divisions, even for no-gi competition ( no straight ankle/knee, no toe hold, no calf slicers ).  In fact, there are no heel hooks allowed in any division, gi or no-gi. 

Blue and purple belts are allowed to do straight footlocks (ankle locks).

"Leg lock" means "kneebar" in IBJJFese.

And here I thought the ankle was attached to the leg!

[scuba_steve]

btw CBJJ DOES allow straight ankle in white belts.

Absolutely incorrect.    http://www.ibjjf.org/rules.htm

There are no leg locks until Brown & Black belt divisions, even for no-gi competition ( no straight ankle/knee, no toe hold, no calf slicers ).  In fact, there are no heel hooks allowed in any division, gi or no-gi. 

Blue and purple belts are allowed to do straight footlocks (ankle locks).

"Leg lock" means "kneebar" in IBJJFese.

And here I thought the ankle was attached to the leg!

Silverfox attempts a sick burn but ends up pwning himself.  Sweet.

Ah, the difference between being an actual competitor and reading an online rule book written by natives of another country...

[SanDaWang]

twisting boner locks.

i would never compete in an event like that, no matter how big the ninja sword trophy was.

[Cankles]

twisting boner locks.

i would never compete in an event like that, no matter how big the ninja sword I was twisting was.

Fixed

[SilverFox]

Silverfox attempts a sick burn but ends up pwning himself.  Sweet.

Ah, the difference between being an actual competitor and reading an online rule book written by natives of another country...

Actually, scuba_steve, I took the IBJJF/CBJJ referee clinic and was certified by Prof. Alvaro Mansor in early October.  We went over the entire rulebook ( as you see posted on the link ) practically line by line, so I do have better than a cursory knowledge.  Obviously we covered a ton of information, but I do not recall the Professor differentiating that an ankle lock was not a leg lock.  Additionally, I watched the No-Gi Pan Ams and was under the impression that white-purple were not doing any 'leg locks' including straight ankle, and many folks reinforced that to me at the event ( mostly upset competitors ) that this was the case.

If Goat says that is the case, then it is news to me, but I default to his knowledge.  I do not nor cannot ref CBJJ events, and I took the clinic just to further broaden my knowledge since most domestic tournaments are based on those rules, particularly for gi competition.  As for not having a 'competitor's understanding' of the rules, I can only say that if you saw the number of DQs and arguments at the No-gi Pan Ams, you too would question how many competitors have any understandings of the rules.

[dr.kimura]

Silverfox attempts a sick burn but ends up pwning himself.  Sweet.

Ah, the difference between being an actual competitor and reading an online rule book written by natives of another country...

Actually, scuba_steve, I took the IBJJF/CBJJ referee clinic and was certified by Prof. Alvaro Mansor in early October.  We went over the entire rulebook ( as you see posted on the link ) practically line by line, so I do have better than a cursory knowledge.  Obviously we covered a ton of information, but I do not recall the Professor differentiating that an ankle lock was not a leg lock.  Additionally, I watched the No-Gi Pan Ams and was under the impression that white-purple were not doing any 'leg locks' including straight ankle, and many folks reinforced that to me at the event ( mostly upset competitors ) that this was the case.

If Goat says that is the case, then it is news to me, but I default to his knowledge.  I do not nor cannot ref CBJJ events, and I took the clinic just to further broaden my knowledge since most domestic tournaments are based on those rules, particularly for gi competition.  As for not having a 'competitor's understanding' of the rules, I can only say that if you saw the number of DQs and arguments at the No-gi Pan Ams, you too would question how many competitors have any understandings of the rules.

Yeah, I've done Alvaro's seminar 3 times, including two weeks ago (which was terrible compared to the first one I did a few years ago).

Straight ankle locks are legal. Heel hooks never legal. Knee bars for brown & black belts.

The question is whether or not GQ allows heel hooks in the kids division.

[SilverFox]

Silverfox attempts a sick burn but ends up pwning himself.  Sweet.

Ah, the difference between being an actual competitor and reading an online rule book written by natives of another country...

Actually, scuba_steve, I took the IBJJF/CBJJ referee clinic and was certified by Prof. Alvaro Mansor in early October.  We went over the entire rulebook ( as you see posted on the link ) practically line by line, so I do have better than a cursory knowledge.  Obviously we covered a ton of information, but I do not recall the Professor differentiating that an ankle lock was not a leg lock.  Additionally, I watched the No-Gi Pan Ams and was under the impression that white-purple were not doing any 'leg locks' including straight ankle, and many folks reinforced that to me at the event ( mostly upset competitors ) that this was the case.

If Goat says that is the case, then it is news to me, but I default to his knowledge.  I do not nor cannot ref CBJJ events, and I took the clinic just to further broaden my knowledge since most domestic tournaments are based on those rules, particularly for gi competition.  As for not having a 'competitor's understanding' of the rules, I can only say that if you saw the number of DQs and arguments at the No-gi Pan Ams, you too would question how many competitors have any understandings of the rules.

Yeah, I've done Alvaro's seminar 3 times, including two weeks ago (which was terrible compared to the first one I did a few years ago).

Terrible? How so? I was gonna travel to Santa Cruz for that one, but then he scheduled one at Renzo's in NYC so did that one instead.

[dr.kimura]

Silverfox attempts a sick burn but ends up pwning himself.  Sweet.

Ah, the difference between being an actual competitor and reading an online rule book written by natives of another country...

Actually, scuba_steve, I took the IBJJF/CBJJ referee clinic and was certified by Prof. Alvaro Mansor in early October.  We went over the entire rulebook ( as you see posted on the link ) practically line by line, so I do have better than a cursory knowledge.  Obviously we covered a ton of information, but I do not recall the Professor differentiating that an ankle lock was not a leg lock.  Additionally, I watched the No-Gi Pan Ams and was under the impression that white-purple were not doing any 'leg locks' including straight ankle, and many folks reinforced that to me at the event ( mostly upset competitors ) that this was the case.

If Goat says that is the case, then it is news to me, but I default to his knowledge.  I do not nor cannot ref CBJJ events, and I took the clinic just to further broaden my knowledge since most domestic tournaments are based on those rules, particularly for gi competition.  As for not having a 'competitor's understanding' of the rules, I can only say that if you saw the number of DQs and arguments at the No-gi Pan Ams, you too would question how many competitors have any understandings of the rules.

Yeah, I've done Alvaro's seminar 3 times, including two weeks ago (which was terrible compared to the first one I did a few years ago).

Terrible? How so? I was gonna travel to Santa Cruz for that one, but then he scheduled one at Renzo's in NYC so did that one instead.

He started 30 minutes late, answered the phone during the seminar, and did not do the video portion that he did a few years ago. He's a great guy and does a top job as the head ref, but that was a bad day for him.

[SilverFox]

He started 30 minutes late, answered the phone during the seminar, and did not do the video portion that he did a few years ago. He's a great guy and does a top job as the head ref, but that was a bad day for him.

Interesting. He did not do a video portion in NYC either, so not sure what was missed.

[Liberty Events]

Below is cut from the IBJJF site. I know a lot of people see leg lock and think entire leg is off limits. If you don't read for the kids (here just 13 through 15) you wouldn't think that they are considered different. Also Prof. Mansor has said that the Adult white belt rules are the same as the 16 through 17 which I'm reading as allowing straight footlocks. I don't want to post bad info so if I'm wrong please post. Thanks


FROM THE AGES OF 13 THROUGH 15:
SLAM FROM THE GUARD
BICEPS LOCK
WRIST LOCK
TRIANGLE PULLING THE HEAD
FOOT LOCKS(ANY KIND)
KNEE LOCK, LEG LOCK
CERVICAL LOCK(ANY KIND)
FRONTAL NECK CRANK
EZEKIEL
CALF LOCK
SCISSORS TAKEDOWN
HEEL HOOK

 AGES 16 TO 17
SLAM FROM THE GUARD
LEG LOCKS
CERVICAL (only without chokes)
BICEPS LOCK
CALF LOCK
WRIST LOCK
MATA LEAO WITH FOOT
SCISSORS TAKEDOWN
HEEL HOOK

 FROM ADULT THROUGH SENIOR (BLUE & PURPLE BELT)
MATA LEO WITH FOOT
SLAM FROM THE GUARD
LEG LOCKS
CERVICAL(only without chokes)
BICEPS LOCK
CALF LOCK
SCISSORS TAKEDOWN
HEEL HOOK

 FROM ADULT THROUGH SENIOR (BROWN AND BLACKBELT)
SLAM FROM THE GUARD
CERVICAL LOCK(only without chokes)
SCISSORS TAKEDOWN
HEEL HOOK

[SilverFox]

Below is cut from the IBJJF site. I know a lot of people see leg lock and think entire leg is off limits. If you don't read for the kids (here just 13 through 15) you wouldn't think that they are considered different. Also Prof. Mansor has said that the Adult white belt rules are the same as the 16 through 17 which I'm reading as allowing straight footlocks. I don't want to post bad info so if I'm wrong please post. Thanks


FROM THE AGES OF 13 THROUGH 15:
SLAM FROM THE GUARD
BICEPS LOCK
WRIST LOCK
TRIANGLE PULLING THE HEAD
FOOT LOCKS(ANY KIND)
KNEE LOCK, LEG LOCK
CERVICAL LOCK(ANY KIND)
FRONTAL NECK CRANK
EZEKIEL
CALF LOCK
SCISSORS TAKEDOWN
HEEL HOOK

 AGES 16 TO 17
SLAM FROM THE GUARD
LEG LOCKS
CERVICAL (only without chokes)
BICEPS LOCK
CALF LOCK
WRIST LOCK
MATA LEAO WITH FOOT
SCISSORS TAKEDOWN
HEEL HOOK

 FROM ADULT THROUGH SENIOR (BLUE & PURPLE BELT)
MATA LEO WITH FOOT
SLAM FROM THE GUARD
LEG LOCKS
CERVICAL(only without chokes)
BICEPS LOCK
CALF LOCK
SCISSORS TAKEDOWN
HEEL HOOK

 FROM ADULT THROUGH SENIOR (BROWN AND BLACKBELT)
SLAM FROM THE GUARD
CERVICAL LOCK(only without chokes)
SCISSORS TAKEDOWN
HEEL HOOK

Yes thanks, looking at the whole listing does clarify.  It might be easier if it were what was allowed versus not allowed, but I do  see 'foot locks' specifically named in the 13-15 category as prohibited.   Therefore, footlocks are separate from both leg locks and mata laeo with the foot and would be 'straight anklelocks' in americanese.

[Cankles]

Mata Leo with the foot is a toe hold.