NAGA allows Heelhooks, Toeholds, Neck cranks, etc.. In Beginners-Opinions.

[Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.Did you miss your activation email?]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

September 03, 2010, 06:28:37 AM

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Advanced search

   

Please contribute to the college fund benefiting Nathan Wager's two children, Little Nate and Madalena.

[Today]

• NATIONALLY RANKED IN BJJ ... by Feel_D_Presh [Today at 03:08:52 AM]
• Talk about how awesome Sc... by goatfury [Today at 12:38:50 AM]
• Who would you like to fig... by paully1976 [Today at 12:01:29 AM]
• Arizona gov is a dumb ass... by bhfsim [Yesterday at 11:52:10 PM]
• Joey Karate reviews UFC 1... by F00tL0cker [Yesterday at 10:21:35 PM]

Members

• Total Members: 9114
• Latest: Caligirlz

Stats

• Total Posts: 1218773
• Total Topics: 78737
• Online Today: 86
• Online Ever: 297
• (April 02, 2010, 06:46:42 PM)

Users Online

• Users: 0
• Guests: 59
• Total: 59

NHB GEAR NEWS

Email:

[kebam]

youre an adult. tap. every submission should be legal in adult divisions

Can't say I agree with you there.

then why have divisions?

 How long does it take to tap from pain from a bicep splicer if your forearm is already broke, from a heel hook if it's thrown on when you have not been grappling long enough to know what they even are, let alone recognize them on the fly in competition?

I think you meant to quote Kenny.

oops

No, it's cool... I think maybe we've discovered some new kind of sparkle.

hmmm, a "kebam" doesn't have much zing.  Do I need to change my nick to something cool?

I think it's just as good as "sparkle" for all intensive purposes (in tents and purr-pussies).

when are ya'll coming to Texas so we have other choices besides naga?

[Joe Hurst]

My thoughts Advanced only for twisting locks..

The most prestegious Jiu Jitsu event in the World Jan. 17th 
The Bud Cup

for more info email me directly.. jiujitsujoe@hotmail.com 

[Brad]

Terrible idea.

Terrible tournament.

[oldsnwbrdr]

These are the same rules NAGA has always used in the no-gi, this is nothing new.  In gi, though, submission rules are the same as CBJJ.  No attacks below the waist for kids and white belts.  Blue belts can do straight footlocks.  No one can do heelhooks/twisting kneelocks.

Truth is, in tournaments a competitor is far likelier to be injured during a takedown or a scramble than any submission hold, though everyone on this thread is correct that some leglocks are much more dangerous than others.  As an instructor, I think it would be wise to do at least some training on leglocks... teaching students which are more dangerous than others... and the importance of knowing when to tap.  This should be true even in BJJ schools where leglocks are not part of the regular curriculum, especially to beginners.

[StallionRGA]

I think I train BJJ as a HOBBY and do not consider myself a professional fighter.  Tomorrow I need to go to work.  I do not trust Joe white belt to understand the intricacies of a heel hook and understand how far he can crank before my ACL gives up.

Couldn't agree with you more Ichimonji!
I'm ok for straight foot locks and straight Kneebars in beginners divisions, but Heel hooks, Toeholds, and neck Cranks should belong only in the advance division.

[JiuJitsuNow]

Incredibly reckless.

I totality agree.

Nobody from NAGA will knock to your door asking you to compete sir, no worries, LOL.... You will be really surprise how many people cares more about samurai sword them their own knees, legs, heels. The event was really pack both days and nobody got hurt serious, not that I see, thanks God.

Hope you doing good man.


Andrew
(No Stalling)

[Fingerlock]

We teach all of our students leg locks, even the beginners.  However, they are allowed to do them while sparring until they know how to roll safely.

This rule is bad and will have beginners at many schools trying to practice them while sparring in order to prepare for a tournament.  This will surely add more money to our doctors pockets.

[Kenny from MD]

Completely BS.

To the guys who say - you are an adult - tap out.  Then what about slamming, fishhooking, small joint manipulation, eye gouge, etc...  These techniques are not striking.  You can just tap if it hurts.  If you believe that you are not welcome around me or my students.  If these rules are actually what NAGA is using then my school will skip.

JM

Even when I was very new I was tapping out to bicep slicers and toeholds. We train with all the submissions at my school, and my instructor stresses safety issues to everyone, especially if hes seems them messing around with heelhooks and stuff. You may not be in exruciating pain from a heel hook until it pops, but you dont feel everything in your leg going completley tight, like its about to snap? Maybe I am asking for too much, thinking that as a competitor you would have enough common sense and knowledge about what youre doing to not hurt somenoe else, or hurt yourself. If you disagree with me that everything should be legal, especially from an instructor or event promoter's standpoint, i can totally understand why, I simply have a difference of opinion.

As far as JM is concerned, I cannot believe you would seriously try to turn me thinking "toe holds should be legal. you should be taught and undersstand that when your foot gets twisted backwards, it will eventually snap. by understanding you are caught and submitting, you are making a rational decision as an adult will avoid this injury" into YEAH MAN, FIGHT THROUGH THE PAIN WE SHOULD BE POKING EACH OTHER IN THE EYES AND THROWING EACH OTHER THROUGH WINDOWS BRO!! I did not say tap out because it hurts, I said tap out because someone is winding everything in your knee in a clockwise direction and everything is about to pop. Just like if someone is bending your arm the wrong way, things in your elbow are going to pop. If this is the kind of logic and reading comprehension you teach to your students, then nevermind banning me from your school, keep your students away from me.

[kebam]

kenny, why have divisions then?  why not just weight classes then.  Congrats on the great school you go to that teaches every sub the first day.  I had my first comp when I had been training less than a month.  Beginner sounds like a pretty good place at that point.

reasonable people can disagree however.

[ScottS]

You really think the only point of divisions is to separate submission use?

[Kenny from MD]

kenny, why have divisions then?  why not just weight classes then.  Congrats on the great school you go to that teaches every sub the first day.  I had my first comp when I had been training less than a month.  Beginner sounds like a pretty good place at that point.

reasonable people can disagree however.

I dont know if you were being sarcastic when congratulating me on my great school, but if it sounded like i was bragging that were taught those submissions i wasnt. im just saying we are properly trained so we know how to properly apply them, how to react to them being applied and the dangers and precautions that come with them. but yeah, my school is pretty great. judging by some of the replies maybe i am coming off like a dick when i dont mean to be? i mean the guys that know me in real life know im a total darling... so im sorry if im coming off rude. well except to judo monk whos banned me from life.

to answer your question, i dont think the point of divisions is solely to dictate what submissions you can and cant perform and im a little suprised honestly that thats even an issue? you are saying, well if anyone can do heel hooks why even differntiate skill levels... that doesnt make any sense to me.. (again not trying to be a dick, im just confused because skill or experience level has very little to do with which techniques youve learned in class)

[JudoMonk]

Kenny,

I am saying that there are plenty of people who have no concept about what injuries mean to adults.  I am going to take a stab in the dark and say you are mid twenties and mostly do no gi.  If you teach, you have more than likely never had any of your students hurt.

You opinion sounds like somebody who thinks that just do bjj for fun is a waste of time, or competing just to measure your technique is not keeping it real.  You argument, if I even understand it given my limited reading comprehension, is that heel hooks should be legal because everybody should know how to defend them.  Or if you get caught in a heel hood you should tap out. 

That is great, but how does that argument fail for any technique.  Everybody should be able to defend everything?  Where do you draw the line?  I don’t think that novices should be defending heel hooks, I have seen too many injuries both in training and competition (including NAGA).

What about neck cranks, slicers, spine locks, finger locks, or slamming?  I am curious what you think should be legal?  What about gi?

Ron Huxen

PS – Your banned

[Kenny from MD]

Kenny,

I am saying that there are plenty of people who have no concept about what injuries mean to adults.  I am going to take a stab in the dark and say you are mid twenties and mostly do no gi.  If you teach, you have more than likely never had any of your students hurt.

You opinion sounds like somebody who thinks that just do bjj for fun is a waste of time, or competing just to measure your technique is not keeping it real.  You argument, if I even understand it given my limited reading comprehension, is that heel hooks should be legal because everybody should know how to defend them.  Or if you get caught in a heel hood you should tap out. 

That is great, but how does that argument fail for any technique.  Everybody should be able to defend everything?  Where do you draw the line?  I don’t think that novices should be defending heel hooks, I have seen too many injuries both in training and competition (including NAGA).

What about neck cranks, slicers, spine locks, finger locks, or slamming?  I am curious what you think should be legal?  What about gi?

Ron Huxen

PS – Your banned

Now see, this kind of post upsets me. This kind of post reenforces everything bad about messageboards. Your post ends by encouraging a normal discussion and an attempt to understand my point of view but begins with pointless "stabs in the dark." Regardless of whether your assumptions are correct or incorrect, what would it even matter? How is it relevant at all to the topic? Its not. Are you trying to come off as a know it all? Are you trying to point out that my attitude is typical to the type of people you encounter regularly and dont take seriously? The assumptions that you are making are based on absolutely nothing, and being that they are completely wrong, I find them absolutely insulting and irrelevant.

I am 22 years old. I practically live in the gi. I have fun rolling no matter what I am wearing, but infinitely prefer the gi and have since the first day I began training. When I teach, you are correct, I have never had anyone get hurt. I am insanely paranoid about our students getting hurt under my watch because it is not my school and I would feel awful having to tell my instructor that something bad happened when I was covering a class. So I am extremely attentive when I am in charge.

Why would I spend every afternoon/night of my life doing something that wasnt fun? I am a kid. If something isnt fun that I say "f**k this" and go play with sticks or mud something. BJJ is the most fun thing in the world. Some people want to learn self defense, some people are meatheads and need to fill a void that Coach Dad left in their self esteem, some people want to be champion, some people just want something to do. What do I care what someones reasoning behind training is? As long as they are sharing a mat with me and rolling around having a good time, thats all that matters to me. Granted, I do compete at literally every tournament within a 5 or 6 hours distance. Why? Because I love Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I love to travel, I love to roll with guys I have never rolled with before, I love meeting people and I love being around anything related to BJJ. When I do a bunch of things that I love, all at once, I find that often times it results in a great deal of fun. Competing to measure your technique isnt "keeping it real?" What else would a tournament, or skill divisions, or belt levels be for then? Im confused by what you are even trying to say with that one... are you inferring that you think I am retarded?

Yes, I think if you are caught in a heel hook, you should tap out. Is that not common sense? If you get caught in any submission, you should tap out? Is that not correct, or am I missing something really important here? Cause if you arent supposed to tap when you get caught in submissions, then apparently there are a bunch of matches that I just quit for no reason... As far as knowing how to defend them? I get caught in things all the time that I dont know how to defend. Weird collar chokes, or sweeps I havent learned yet, etc etc. As a blue belt, theres no way I can possibly know the defense to everything yet. That is not the point. But I think even a white belt should know when he is stuck in a submission, and when he can fight it off. Its a very basic, fundamental principal of the sport and ESPECIALLY if you are competing you should be aware of this.

Where do I draw the line? Again, not everyone should know the defense to everything. Thats why certain techniques work. But yes, every competitor should be aware of how and when to tap. Armbars dont kill people, hyperextended elbows because the guy waited until his arm popped kills people. Granted I havent been around as long as most but I havent seen any novices at NAGA get hurt from heel hooks. Im sure it has happened when I havent been there to watch it, but novices get hurt by submissions all the time. Arms get broken, ankles get blown, etc etc. Is it because the submission was too dangerous? Or is it from a number of other reasons (refused to tap, freak accident, etc etc) In my experience it is usually one of those other reasons. The only heel hook injuries I have seen personally have been in black belt matches actually, and that was their decision to gamble with their knee in trying to escape. I would say the only legitimate excuse to not tap is to a choke-- I personally havent been choked unconsciouss but Ive come close and in talking with everyone most everyone agrees that at some point they got collar choked and didnt even realize they were going out until they were too late. I was in the process of defending and didnt realize I was going out until I had freed myself and the blood was coming back to my head.

As far as neck cranks, spine locks, and slicers... yeah they are annoying. There is nothing I hate more than someone using a can opener to attempt to open my guard. The first time I got was caught in a twister was at 10th Planet. I didnt know how to apply it, how to defend it, and walked right into the set up for it. Did I just wiggle around and make gross noises and let my spine break? No. I thought "holy s**t, I am in some crazy ass submission that I have never been in before. TAP TAP TAP" I think I made the right choice and would probably apply that same split second decision making to any submission I was caught in.

As far as finger locks and slamming go, why would you bring that up AGAIN? How is that relevant to a heel hook at all? What does a legitimate submission, and the ability to recognize the danger you are in have to do with getting picked up and slammed into the ground or having your fingers turned sideways? Those are not situations where you get stuck and must suck it up and admit defeat. They have nothing to do with the topic at hand and if you cant recognize that, then you are a crazy person. As far as what I think should be legal, I think the rules for the advanced divisions are a good set of rules. Will I stand at the door of the next US Grappling and form a picket line and boycott because I cant slap a toe hold on in blue belt flyweight? Absolutely not. Im not campagining that its messed up that everythings not a legal move or pushing for anyone to change any rules. Someone simply asked "do you think this should be legal?" and I answered "yes" based on my feelings that we as adults should be able to accept responsibility and the consequence that comes with our choices and actions.

Although I feel the same way about gi's rules (in regards to what techniques are allowed at each belt level) as I do about no gi, I have no problem not being able to heel hook in the gi. But thats only for the simple reason that its a completely different event and I like that there is a different point system and some minor changes in the rules. I think it is cool that they arent exactly the same, only with an outfit change and its challenging that I have a much different gameplan between the two different events.

I cant believe I felt the need to type this long of a response, but maybe if I make things THIS clear you wont have to assume Im a competition hungry mid 20 year old, foaming at the mouth and snarling at the idea of someone doing BJJ just for fun. And maybe youll stop asking me if slamming should be legal.

[kebam]

kenny, why have divisions then?  why not just weight classes then.  Congrats on the great school you go to that teaches every sub the first day.  I had my first comp when I had been training less than a month.  Beginner sounds like a pretty good place at that point.

reasonable people can disagree however.

I dont know if you were being sarcastic when congratulating me on my great school, but if it sounded like i was bragging that were taught those submissions i wasnt. im just saying we are properly trained so we know how to properly apply them, how to react to them being applied and the dangers and precautions that come with them. but yeah, my school is pretty great. judging by some of the replies maybe i am coming off like a dick when i dont mean to be? i mean the guys that know me in real life know im a total darling... so im sorry if im coming off rude. well except to judo monk whos banned me from life.

to answer your question, i dont think the point of divisions is solely to dictate what submissions you can and cant perform and im a little suprised honestly that thats even an issue? you are saying, well if anyone can do heel hooks why even differntiate skill levels... that doesnt make any sense to me.. (again not trying to be a dick, im just confused because skill or experience level has very little to do with which techniques youve learned in class)

you aren't coming off like a dick at all but you do seem to be minimizing the concerns of the other posters.  I just think that there needs to be a layer of safety for people that maybe don't have the access to the same level of training you had. 

" im just confused because skill or experience level has very little to do with which techniques youve learned in class)"

I think it has everything to do with what you've learned in class.  It takes time to know when to tap.  My first bicep splicer didn't hurt at all, but if I hadn't already been practicing for several months I wouldn't have known I was in any danger and wouldn't have tapped because when I first started, everything was new.  I didn't think I was in any danger but I got an uneasy feeling and tapped because of that.

As stated, I competed in my first tournament with less than a month in.   Where is the layer of safety there?  People shouldn't compete until they go down a sub recognition check list?

[oldsnwbrdr]

The bias against leglocks is cultural within the BJJ community.  Leglocks are as legit as any other submission.  Train them!!!  Learn them!!!  Learn when to tap!!!

Again, if safety was the overriding concern, then takedowns would be banned.  I don't care how many people claim they've seen people hurt by leglocks, it pales in comparison to the number of broken legs, toes, knee dislocations, arm dislocations, caused by good old fashioned double-legs and judo throws.

You want to eliminate the danger element altogether?  Fine, go to the paddycake tournament down the street.

Otherwise, train submissions!!